Interviews and articles
Interview to the Internet edition "Ukrainska Pravda". Part one
First part of Victor Pinchuk's Interview to Internet edition "Ukrainska Pravda". Interviewer: Serhiy Leshchenko.
- Ten years ago in 1997 you decided to go to politics being a very successful Dnipropetrovsk businessman. What were your motives? How did you live those ten years?
- It was a very happy time. About ten years ago I met my beloved woman. About ten years ago I started thinking of running for parliament. And thanks God my woman is still by my side and the parliament is without me.
Back then, I was not eager to go into politics. But it was popular among my generation of businessmen to take part in elections. Many people used to say: "Everybody runs for parliament. You should also do it."
I was hesitating but the staff persuaded me: "Viktor, you must go for it!" The president of the board used to say: "You must lobby interests of our company." I made the final decision to run for parliament. I think this decision was justified, especially given that period.
- Businessmen went to parliament to earn money.
- I had no intention of earning money as I already controlled two plants.
- Well, then lobbying interests of your company...
- It was one of the reasons. Like other businessmen who ran for parliament I hoped to change at least something. We were the first generation of successful businessmen and we wanted to fulfill our potential.
Honestly, my wife persuaded me from running for parliament: "Do not go there. I live in a family of politicians. I want you to get me out of politics."
This made me hesitate and I changed my decision several times. Then she said: "Let's ask father."
Mr. Kuchma did not know me well then. He said: "If he has a chance for the victory then he should run for parliament. The Verkhovna Rada needs strong people."
- One of the western periodicals wrote that the Dnipropetrovsk election constituency in which you ran for parliament was Mr. Kuchma's wedding present.
- That's rubbish!
When I started the election campaign I was very ‘green' and unprepared. I had every chance to lose. I conducted meetings with voters at their homes.
It was a crazy victory over the main rivals Viktor Veretennikov and socialist Vitaliy Shybko. They were very popular there. I want to say that I defeated very famous politicians.
People used to tell me: "Viktor. It is a gamble. You have no chance at all." But when I started the election campaign I understood I had to win. I won the election without any administrative resources. It was a crazy challenge for me. It was a real drive. It was an awesome election campaign. Later, our TV ads even won prizes at festivals.
- When you started as a serious politician it was the year 1998...
- When we were elected, they started to ‘herd' all businessmen into one pro-government faction...After that we went for vacation to Mexico with my wife's son Roma.
I was sitting by the Pacific Ocean and thinking to myself: "We are young, modern and independent... We need to change the state of things. That's it. We will create our own faction." I came back to Ukraine and proposed it to Andrey Derkach, Ihor Sharov and some other people: "Guys, let's form our own faction to defend our interests." That is how Trudova Ukrayina faction appeared in parliament.
- There was another man who could defend everybody's interests. His name is Pavlo Lazarenko...
- I think that Lazarenko was one of those who helped me win the election. He hurled all his effort to defeat me. It was challenging for me in a way!
I was the first in the region or even maybe in the country to openly and publicly oppose him. People started recognizing me in the street and thanked me. I was the first to offer him any opposition.
Lazarenko openly agitated against me. But I know that he praised me privately and then confessed: "Well, you are a smart guy. Your election campaign is terrific." He set me as an example to his allies: "Look, that is what I expect you to be!"
- The roots of your conflict with Tymoshenko originate from that time?
- There are always roots in the past that show up in the future.
- If Lazarenko had not fled could he have possibly defeated Leonid Kuchma at the presidential election?
- Sometimes I think of this man. (Pauses) I do not know what could happen to him here. He would most likely play an important role in Ukraine's politics. But still, he would have never won the presidential election.
- Did you follow the same belief when you backed Viktor Yanukovych against Viktor Yushchenko in 2004?
- I have never said that Mr. Yushchenko could not win the election. On the contrary, I always believed that his popularity rating was very high and he had good chances.
In 2002, I thought that it would be reasonable to appoint Serhiy Tyhypko the PM. But Yanukovych was gathering momentum very quickly. When Leonid Kuchma appointed Yanukovych the PM we met with Mr. Yanukovych and I told him: "We have been thinking of another candidate. But the decision is already made. I give you my word that we will do everything possible for your victory."
- Do you regret anything you did in 2004?
- Do you want me to be very frank?
- You may be as frank as you wish.
- I regret I personally participated in the privatization of Kryvorizhstal. I have spoken about it before. You will not hear more confessions from me now.
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- Now you actively exploit the image of the Orange Revolution.
- I beg your pardon?
- The image of the Orange Revolution. It was in your presentation at the recent YES conference.
- The Orange Revolution cannot be deleted from Ukraine's history. We need to differentiate revolution's chiefs and people who came to Maidan to defend themselves. They came to Maidan but not on the Maidan stage. By the way, we used the picture of Maidan filled with people not from the Orange Revolution but from Elton John's show.
- But don't you agree that people came to Maidan because they opposed Leonid Kuchma?
- No. I do not think so. They thought the authority wanted to deceive them. That in why they came to the streets. Mr. Kuchma was history for most of them. They were interested in Yushchenko and Yanukovych. Maidan did not oppose Kuchma.
- Is it true that Yushchenko could be in Yanukovych's place? I mean was it possible that he could be Kuchma's successor?
- In 2005 I asked Leonid Kuchma: "Could you tell me what happened in the end of 1999 after your victory at the presidential election. You chose Yushchenko, didn't you?" He replied: "I wanted to carry out major reforms. I chose Yushchenko as a liberal economist."
Mr. Yushchenko most likely had a chance of keeping the PM office. I think that the tape scandal upset the applecart.
- During the recent few years you gave several interviews. However, you never said whom you considered initiator of the tape scandal. Can you now?
- I do not know. I just can repeat that when we hired the US detective agency Kroll to carry out investigation we proved that Melnychenko lied. He could not record from under the sofa because recording from that spot was very noisy. As known, there was no noise on the tapes.
First, we could not trace the noise source. When I left the president's office I noticed a metal locator on the wall in the hall. I said: "Turn it off." We turned it off and the noise subsided. Then we turned it on again, and again we heard noise. But the metal locator was never turned off!
That means he lied, and the dialogues were recorded in some other way. We proved it. I think that everything was recorded with the equipment that was installed during the Soviet times in the President's Administration.
- You know, the Kroll employees confessed several years after the investigation that their task was proving Mr. Kuchma had ‘white hands'.
- No. They could not possibly say that! They had an agreement. They would have never done such a nasty thing being the US firm with the highest reputation!
- In 2004, in the famous interview with the Zherkalo Tyzhnya periodical you said that Kuchma's era would not end after the election. It seems like you were wrong with such a forecast. Leonid Kuchma has no influence in the country at all.
- To the contrary, back then in 2004 I could not have imagined how fast the country would realize the value of his legacy.
Indeed, his political career is over. Every political force has people whom Leonid Kuchma appointed and awarded. Mr. Kuchma's PMs and Vice PMs set tone in Ukraine's politics now.
As a journalist you know that when Mr. Kuchma shows up in public he is surrounded by microphones and cameras. But you cannot imagine how many people come to him seeking advice, proposing to head their parties or guide their political projects.
He is ahead of today's politics. Look at what President Yushchenko is proposing now: a two-chamber parliament, cancellation of deputy privileges, adoption of the Constitution at an all-national referendum. These are Mr. Kuchma's ideas of the 1990s and items of the 2000 referendum.
You see, I was actually right.
- During the YES conference the participants were shown the presentation "Ukraine in 2020." From this virtual future the author recalled the year 2007. Stating the successful resolution of the crisis the presentation shows Yushchenko, Yanukovych and Plyushch. Is it your push for the broad coalition after election?
- I, like all the participants, saw this presentation for the first time at the conference. Should I edit ads and presentations?! YES does not push for any particular political force. I am 100% honest!
- Then what coalition is the most effective?
- It is a broad coalition. Today, it is the only way out, the only chance and hope. It is the coalition between the Party of Regions and Our Ukraine!
Of course, there could be more coalition members. But the coalition between the Party of Regions and Our Ukraine is Ukraine's only chance for stability.
- But such a union is natural neither for the Party of Regions nor for Our Ukraine.
- Such a union is the only way out from the current crisis. It is not an ideal solution but there is no other effective way out. All proposed compromises are at a standstill. A ‘one color opposition' can not ensure stability in the country. One needs to unite the two parts of the country through agreement of the elite.
- How would you convince Our Ukraine and the Party of Regions to unite?
- Listen to what Bill Clinton said in Yalta!
Mr. Clinton said: "Guys! What's your problem? The humanity faces such problems as AIDS, change of climate, poverty and terrorism! Some people earn only one dollar a day. These are the real problems of the mankind. Why are you arguing about? You cannot share a couple of offices? Are you ready to throw the country back in development because of these conflicts?"
Mr. Clinton's speech was the master class. One needs to listen and ace it: "Man, these are the global problems and we are fighting for authority here." We did not come to an agreement because somebody wanted to have more offices.
- But if the broad coalition is formed it will be betrayal that resulted in the upcoming early election...
- What are you talking about? Mr. X betrayed Mr. Y? Think of the country!
- But isn't honesty of politics a real value?
- Honesty is valuable everywhere...
- ...but the early election is the result of the socialists' betrayal!
- I repeat that the broad coalition is the most honest solution for the country. If one cannot be honest everywhere he must be honest with the most important things. The country and the people are all important for a politician.
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- I am.
- Then you can initiate reconciliation of the political forces.
- I think that many people try to contribute something to the agreement between the parties and political groups. Without any doubt, business is interested in stability. But there is no businessmen's union in Ukraine. It is high time for businessmen to unite as a class.
- Do you think there is any progress here?
- I will not speak for my peers. Of course, most of them try to do something in their own way. Some of their initiatives are worthy of my respect.
- Let's talk about YES as an instrument of Eurointegration. It is impossible to integrate into the EU without the key player Yulia Tymoshenko. She was not among your guests at the conference. Indeed, you had a conflict with her. But you cannot ignore her. What can you say about that?
- Eurointegration is impossible without Tymoshenko?! You are asking me to solve a non-existing problem. I see no problem here!
I will point out that representatives of most political forces, including her bloc, have been participating in the conference for several years. Most of the YES board members communicate with her. Our doors are opened for any politician. Once a person becomes interested - they are welcome. It applies to all Ukrainian politicians including her.
- Do you think the country needs Mrs. Tymoshenko? Is she positive or negative for the country? They say that Yulia Tymoshenko is an instrument against usurpation of power. What do you think?
- I do not know who she is. I do not know whether or not the country needs her either. But the country has her.
If you want to teach a man to swim do not force him to swim in the river full of piranhas. He may not have enough time to learn. You want to treat usurpation of power with Yulia Tymoshenko. Well, I do not know...you'd better think about it.
- Do you see the risks of usurpation of power in Ukraine? Do you do anything to prevent it?
- Yes. Usurpation is a possible threat. But big business must launch projects aimed at the development of the country and democracy in particular, instead of fighting usurpation. Development of democracy decreases chances of usurpation. Business promotes development of democracy. Business can develop only in a democratic and law-abiding state respecting the right of private ownership.
- Who was the best PM after the Orange revolution?
- Of course, Tymoshenko!
- That's ridiculous!
- It is true! Look. What are the two goals of business? The first one is to protect what you already have, the second being projects and plans for future development. So, under Mrs. Tymoshenko's premiership most of Ukraine's business had neither opportunity nor desire to accomplish the second goal. Thus, we had less work.
- That is why many people consider your effort today as an instrument of protection.
- Who are these ‘many people'?
- Even at the YES conference one could hear that your projects are the fortresses that would protect you from the threats of 2005. It isn't true, is it?
- No! It is the plain truth.
- It is irony, isn't it?
- No. I just want to provoke!
- So, you want to let everybody know that you protect the country by protecting yourself?
- No. Just to the contrary. I protect myself by protecting the country. I do it through implementation of democratic reforms. I always state the importance of EU membership which is the only effective way to implement these reforms. Then it will be impossible to go back to old times.
- But you decided to implement these projects after change of power...
- No. I started these projects under President Kuchma when I was sure Mr. Yanukovych would become the next president. That is why it was not a matter of protection.
- It was a ‘parachute'...
- No, it was not. If I sold part of my operation and bought real estate abroad it would be a ‘parachute'! One gets much cash, transfers it abroad and he is untouchable.
Many people asked me why I did not do it. I did not want to do it! Promoting Eurointegration is not a ‘parachute'.
- But in 1997 you definitely did not expect to become Ukraine's main proponent of Euro-integration in 2007.
- Of course not. Gradually, having stepped on the next stair you see the new horizons. You may either step up or step down.
- What next? What is the next stage?
- Well, for instance, I want to set the task of cutting Ukraine's road to EU by one year. To achieve this goal the country needs to work hard towards it for ten years. But imagine the profit of this year! It is billions and billions of dollars!
This is a real contribution. Although I do not see the ways to implement it now I understand it needs to be done. YES is one of the ways to achieve it.
Of course, one needs collaboration with the political leaders running the country. The president is interested in it. I am convinced that the PM has also interest in Ukraine's EU membership. Other political leaders will also show a keen interest. As soon as they stop fighting on the local level and give attention to Ukraine's strategic choice the probability of success will be raised. Of course, if we shorten this route by one year...
- You mean 2019?
- Quite possibly. I repeat I do not know how much money this year will bring to the budget and I do not know how many stages we must pass to see how it works. But this is a good goal.
Also read the second part of the interview
